Think Christian - Latest Comments in No Birth Control for Baptists

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

SiarlysJenkins — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:56:59 -0000

That is the most solidly conservative and deeply spiritual defense of birth control, and individual free choice tempered with moral principle and the common sense of real life responsibilities, that I have ever seen. Thank you, and thanks for the history lesson too.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

aida — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 14:43:48 -0000

Well, Im a 25 year old married women with three children. I was recently laid off and my husband has had trouble finding work. We've stuggled to make it with the five of us and We've decided another child would make it even harder for us to provide for the family we already have. I dont believe in abortion, but I will not judge those who choose to do so. Thats the right God gave us, to make our own descisions. However, I do believe in birth control. Women were eating plants known to prevent conception long ago, plants God made. I dont think he ment for familys to continue to grow just because we can, without the means to care for all.

Id rather be able to care for the children I have by my own means then going to a goverment office and claiming money for my family that I did not earn.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

SiarlysJenkins — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:32:46 -0000

Amen.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:50:42 -0000

I dont take a godly stand on anything that i'm about to say. I'm not a "christian" and although i have certain beliefs that a christian might, i base my oppinions on abortion and birth control pills only on what i think is acceptable.

I have been on birth control pills for 4 or 5 months now, and i've taken the morning after pill once before. I never would have considered myself to be a "murderer" in any way. The main purpose of the pill is to prevent ovulation, and i dont think that people should think that the tiny chance of the pill causing a fertilized egg to be rejected is abortion. When i take the pill it is certainly not my intention to abort any form of living baby inside me. However im not sure that i think a fertilized egg is considered a baby. the egg has no heartbeat, no brain, no developing organs. the egg only has potential to grow into a human being. i dont think its abortion unless you do somthing to harm the already attached and growing baby embryo. Therefore, i dont consider myself a murderer, i consider myself a responsible person.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

SiarlysJenkins — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:03:30 -0000

You are absolutely correct Sandra. I cannot dismiss your personal beliefs, and I do not wish to. Nor can you dismiss mine, if they differ. One of the problems with this debate is that people want to dismiss other people's personal beliefs, which amounts to "you must be free to think like I do." Nonsense. We are each accountable to God for our own beliefs and actions. There are people who proclaim that EVERYONE should use contraception. They are as wrong as those who wish to DENY contraception on the basis of personal beliefs. As to Psalms 139: 13-16, I don't find a straightforward presentation of when human life begins. I find that the speaker, and I, and you, are fearfully and wonderfully made. In a lesser sense, so is a full grown salmon, but think how many salmon eggs were never fertilized, how many fertile eggs never hatched fingerlings, how many fingerlings never made it to the ocean, how many salmon in the ocean never made it back to spawn... And until 100 years ago, you could expect half the kids in your kindergarten class to be dead before you graduated from high school, if you did. God seems to work the numbers. Oh, that's not in the Bible either, its just what I have observed.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Sandra25 — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:57:15 -0000

Can you produce a biblical citation that says it doesn't? Probably not. However, you cannot dismiss my personal belief that life begins at conception just because you may believe differently. My belief is just as valid as yours. Many things, biblical or otherwise, cannot be demonstrably proven, so they must be taken on faith. And that's how I approach my belief that life begins at conception. What I can do is look at God's response to life and how He holds it as precious, and though the Jeremiah passage may be taken out of context sometimes, it nevertheless states truth. How about Psalm 139:13-16? That's a fairly straightforward passage in support of when human life begins.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

SiarlysJenkins — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:35:51 -0000

Many people have said "I believe life begins at conception." Does anyone have a Biblical citation for that proposition? Don't pop up with the one from Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb..." because it does NOT say at what point "I formed you in the womb," and God's primary point was not when life begins, but that Jeremiah should get over his stage fright. Does anyone have a Biblical citation that life begins "at conception"? Generally any concept of "abortion" in any human society prior to 1950 AD referred to a substantial fetus removed from a woman who could tell by physical symptoms that she was pregnant. When we try to apply this to microscopic dimensions, is there any Biblical authority to do so?

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

SiarlysJenkins — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:51:51 -0000

"Different" is no basis at all to say that one person is a person and another is not. Each person is "different." But to use an extreme example, a rock is not a person, and neither is a maple tree. There are real and common sense differences in the quality of each. One thing a baby and an adult have in common is that each can live outside of the womb. Medical technology is making that distinction fuzzier, but without intervention by complex technology, for many months a fetus will die if not for the support and protection of its mother's body. A zygote (fertilized egg) which does not implant will never grow -- and remember, many zygotes naturally are flushed from the womb without ever implanting. There is a certain randomness to the natural process, which I believe allows for some degree of individual choice. A zygote could naturally fail to implant, therefore it is no sin to take steps to make sure it doesn't. Once a life begins to grow, that is different. Once that life can sustain itself outside the mother, that is different once again.

As a matter of fact, the line of research on stem cells which uses existing body cells is bringing closer the day when a scraping of skin cells COULD be induced to grow into a person. The genetic coding is all there. I don't favor reproductive cloning, but I think creating a new pancreas for a patient with pancreatic cancer, one that the body would not reject, is a good thing indeed.

As to deep coma or vegetative state, if I were kept in such a state only by artificial life support, I personally would want it disconnected if it becomes clear that recovery of brain function is unlikely. That includes, after a few weeks, nutrition from a feeding tube. I would want to let nature take its course. I would not authorize anyone to cut my throat.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

SiarlysJenkins — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:38:17 -0000

The arrogance, in my seldom humble but admittedly limited opinion, is when men define themselves AS "godly" or defer to others as "godly." This assumes that we know what God would do. For a man or woman to strive to be more like God, to understand what God would have us do with our lives, is the essence of faith in God. To proclaim that any given proposition offered from the pulpit is "the truth" and that those who offer it are "godly men" is arrogant, no matter what the proposition is. If it is true, let the truth become manifest as it is quietly accepted by those who hear it. Obviously, I find discussions like this edifying, so I don't mean we shouldn't talk about it. But ungodly men have been known to preach from pulpits, and sincere servants of Christ have been known to be wrong.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

sarah Frock — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:08:14 -0000

The Pill does not prevent an egg from being released, It is just to prevent pregnancy.
once a month, an egg fall to be fertalized, when it is not fertalized it dies and the woman bleeds. the birth control pill allows the same to happen, only if you decide to have intercourse it will prevent the egg from being fertalized, that is it. when you go off the pill, it may take a little while to get pregnant, but you will.

It is not killing or murdering.

I am a Babtized person, and im on the pill because, i am 23 and do not want a baby this time, and condoms can break, so i use condoms also, but i would like backup.

so that is the truth about birth control!

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

AMB — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:56:37 -0000

I'm curious about the vehemence of your response. Do you object to the fact that it is a man writing about birth control? Or do you object to the fact that he uses terms like "sin" and "murder"? I would love a more thorough explanation as to what you think is so bad about Dr. White's thoughts.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Andy G — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:53:27 -0000

"Godly men" is an arrogant oxymoron. "All fall short of the glory of God."

I do not believe that is supported by the fullness of The Gospel. Yes, in our natural life (our adamic nature) we are sinful and there is nothing that we can DO in order to attain righteousness or Godliness.

But, a thourough understanding of Romans 6,7,8 will clear up the picture for you. As believers we have entered into a new nature - Christ's nature - which is eternal life. The scripture is very clear that we were with christ at crucifixion, resurrection, ascencion, and seated in Him at the right hand of the Father. Through the surrender of our desires and passions and the allowance of Christ's life to be manifest as our life (Read Romans 12) we have renewed minds. Holy and acceptable to God. We have become holy, righteous, children of a loving Father - not by what we DO but by who we ARE .... the trick after that is to LET Christ be our life.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

AMB — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:48:21 -0000

Is a person that is in a deep coma or a vegetative state no longer human? They cannot act or exercise their will, and for all we know they cannot feel or think either, not consciously.

A skin cell or sperm cell is VERY different from a fertilized egg - no matter how long you let a skin cell or sperm cell grow, it will never develop into a full adult human person. The fertilized egg will.

Is killing an adult different is than killing a baby, since they are "different"? NO! They are both humans, just at different stages of development. The same goes for the embryo. From the moment the sperm and the egg come together, you have a human being in its earliest state of development - you don't have some other kind of thing. Maybe it doesn't have a soul yet, we don't know when that happens. It seems only reasonable to me to assume that God allowed this new human life to be created, and we should not carelessly kill and dispose of it.

I agree that it is debatable as to whether other forms of birth control are acceptable - condoms, spermicides, etc. - and that many loving Christian spouses have chosen to use birth control and it hasn't ruined their lives. But I still think anything that would prevent implantation should come in a different category, and I would encourage Christians to think and pray about it.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Andrew — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:24:43 -0000

As far as birth control is concerned, I do not know. But, amyb brings up a great point. I prefer to call myself a Christian, but I acknowledge that I am also a protestant, as I am not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. And as someone who has come to question a lot of Christian tradition over the years, I've come to realize how much protestants rely on tradition with or without biblical basis. A Catholic might not use birth control, simply because that's the tradition he's come to know the Lord in. But, protestants might use birth control without thinking about because it is our tradition to not even think about this one. Either way, let us be humble, acknowledge God is working in our brothers and sisters in different traditions, and examine everything for ourselves and with the families that we fellowship, weighing everything by the Bible, listening to His Spirit.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

SiarlysJenkins — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:04:15 -0000

Life begins long before conception. Every sperm cell is alive. So is every egg. So are the cells which had all 23 pairs of chromosomes before meiosis. In fact, if you look at every individual cell as alive, life began -- with the very first living cell. The real question, which is masked by the language of speaking of "life" is when does HUMAN life begin. I do not, frankly, believe that the pairing of 23 chromosomes from one cell with 23 chromosomes from another constitutes a human being. It is a blueprint for a human being. It does not feel, think, act, or exercise will as a human being. Preventing that one cell from forming, or implanting, is NOT the same thing as removing a partially formed being with nerves and blood vessels, which is not the same thing as destroying a fully formed independently functioning baby. Each is different. While I respect the statements of repentance for sexual immorality, I must note that many faithful married couples also use birth control, including my own parents; I was their first-born, three years after their marriage. I don't have any problem with that at all. If we are going to talk about interfering with a God-given process, viruses are as much God-given as fertilization, not to mention bacteria. God had to teach his Chosen People to dig latrines, to break the "natural" process by which diseases cycled out and back into our bodies. This gave the Twelve Tribes distinct advantages over the rest of us, until such time as sanitation became more generally accepted. If anyone wants to argue that disease pathogens are symptoms of a "fallen world," well, by the same token, so is sex and childbirth. The physical, biological functions are not the soul.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

SiarlysJenkins — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:49:47 -0000

"Godly men" is an arrogant oxymoron. "All fall short of the glory of God."

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

marcelo — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:37:25 -0000

When does life begin? The answer to this question seems very easy at first glance: at fecundation. However, a true relationship between mother and child begins at mplantation, which is the phenomenon of attachment of the embryo to the uterus. After that, mother and embryo starts to share blood and a dependence relation is established. It is known that the great majority of spontaneous abortions occur before implantation. The human species ishas one of the poorer reprocductive performances in the animal kingdom. In a sense, contraceptives are not abortifacients, since they do not kill embryos after implantation. And importantly, their main mechanism of action is to block ovulation. It is not an easy question and many couples are faced with spurious definitions and bad information given by media or even by doctors. As a christian and as a gynecologist, i always try to counsel couples with a christian perspective, with the best information available and let them freely decide. However, i believe thhat fecundation per se does not create a totally viable but a potentially viable human being, since implantation is the main event that will ultimately lead to a living born. In fact, science does not define what is life, God does. Again, not an easy question!

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Damian — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:16:01 -0000

Ahhh yes, you're right David. Fools, we are. After a wiki-gynocology lesson, I realise I was addressing the wrong part of the process.

In which case, preventing the blasocyst from adhering to the wall of the uterus is akin to starving it to death. Certainly problematic ethically.

But, I think my previous comment still applies to other forms of contraception.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

David Ker — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:15:37 -0000

Damian, I'm a bit of a dunce on the vocabulary here. But I think Jim is confusing fertilization of the egg with implantation in the uterus. Just shows you what happens when theologians (and men mostly) discuss gynecology! 8)

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Kara @ Just1Step — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:13:14 -0000

If birth control pills DO prevent implantation, I do consider this a form of abortion. I believe that life begins at conception.

There is no evidence as to whether or not pills do prevent implantation. You can read many articles and opinions on the matter. I believe everyone needs to make a personal choice as to whether or not they are willing to take that risk.

For me, personally, although I did take birth control pills for a while, after reading the unconvincing evidence in support of either side, I chose to no longer take them. I do not want to risk preventing an embryo to implant.

And yes, I think this has been the view of some Baptists for quite some time. I go to a Baptist church and have heard of many people who hold this view.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Kaleb — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:31:56 -0000

I'm not opposed to birth control, but I also believe that life begins at conception. Because of this, I also believe that the typical pill is not a form of birth control that should be used. While it almost always prevents fertilization there are times when it prevents implantation of an embryo. It may be rare, but it is impossible to know when this happens so it is best to avoid it altogether. I haven't done much research on this subject, but I believe that I have heard there is a type of pill that works differently than the most commonly used ones and that this pill doesn't prevent implantation. If so, then I believe this would be an acceptable option because, as I said, I don't think Scripture forbids using any type of birth control.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Annie — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 12:21:32 -0000

The best analogy I've heard is...If you leave a toddler unattended around a pool, they won't always drown, but why take the chance. We used different forms of birth control over the years without any thought, when we'd had enough we went the surgical route, I did get pregnant three times while taking the pill, so it obviously doesn't prevent ovulation 100%. Most pills have a three pronged approach, 1. prevent ovulation, 2. prevent conception. 3. Prevent implantation. It's likely that during our course of bc 1 happened more than the three times that I did get pregnant, and one of the other two approaches kicked in. Having to do it over again, we would not use any form birth control. Why take the chance?

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Monica — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:24:32 -0000

No difference. And that is why I've never been on the Pill.

I think you'll find I'm not the only pro-life Christian woman who feels this way. Kudos to Dr. White for preaching that message.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

AMB — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:52:06 -0000

As a former Catholic, now a reformed Christian, I have always found it startling how easy it is for Protestants to just accept the pill and other forms of artificial contraception. I am not saying that we should just follow lock-step with the Catholics, I just mean - why don't my fellow Protestants struggle with it?! Why is it so easy, when it's such an important life issue?! My husband and I wrestled with it, and we came to the conclusion that it was not a God-honoring practice. I am not comfortable with the chance of causing an abortion (and to answer your question, I think that anything that prevents implantation of a fertilized egg is basically the same as an abortion) even if that chance is rare and unintended. And while some may argue that Natural Family Planning is no different from artificial birth control because both are equally taking control over your fertility, I disagree. I do think there is a difference between using a physical or chemical barrier to pregnancy, and using timing of natural processes to make pregnancy unlikely though still always possible.

I do respect that there is a great difference of opinion here, even among my closest Christian friends. In fact, I am the only Protestant that I know that has a problem with birth control, so believe me, I don't say this from a place of judgment, I am just speaking my conscience.

Re: No Birth Control for Baptists

Sandra25 — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:14:10 -0000

I saw the WFAA report when it first aired, and my thought was that Dr. White is making Baptists look like a bunch of backward, fundamental lunatics. It's not what he said, but how he said it and his possible motive behind why he said it that gave me pause. I personally believe that life begins at conception; logically then, I must conclude that no ethical difference exists between abortion and birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilized egg, but I wonder if Dr. White's real agenda was an attempt to dissuade young, single, birth control-taking seminary students and their partners from engaging in premarital sex. If that's the case, he won't be able to "guilt" these students into sexual purity by essentially labeling them "murderers." We Baptists love our guilt too much.