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In summation, Paul says... in 1 Cor 5:11
"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."
So within the fellowship or professing believers, there is accountability, but Christians have no business judging unbelievers.
Would it be any different attending church with them?
I invite you to read stories from Dr Tillers former patients here, many of whom were in tragic medical situations with pregnancies that were very much wanted. http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/0...
Peace
yes, i can stand and worship with him/her. because the only reason why we are able to be in the presence of God is Jesus, by His blood. all by His grace.
So yeah, sorry to jump in like that, but the "judging" that we aren't supposed to do is actually pretty narrowly defined, and does NOT mean that we don't look critically at someone's fruit.
Just because someone does a bit of "good" or has good intentions doesn't mean you overlook all the bad. I am wondering how many of the children aborted by Dr. Tiller were misdiagnosed with problems, or what the definition of "health of the mother" really constitues.
I am sure many murderous dictators loved and took care of their families. Would you stand and worship with them?
I posted this in reply. (I am not sure whether a site like that will allow it to show up. It said my comment 'awaited moderation'):
"Why is killing the patient seen as a solution to their disease/disability?
Yes, some babies are very ill or disabled before they are born. But instead of confronting the disease, we now hide from it because it is too difficult for us?
These children have a life.
Let that life mean something by allowing them to fight against their disease/disability and to give hope to future children.
We must be strong to support our children when they are sick/disabled. We cannot simply get rid of them because it is hard on us emotionally.
Their lives, though short, can help someone else live a better life in the future. Wouldn't you be proud to know that your child helped others?
I know, some are going to say I am heartless for speaking plainly like this. I do not discount the difficulty of what I propose.
But killing the patient is not the answer to disease and disability."
When will we stop taking our cues from the culture about what is good and what is evil.
Have we lost all sense of the intolerable or is everything negotiable?
Have you ever walked in the shoes of one of the mothers who had to make the undoubtedly horrendous decision between her baby's life and her own? Between allowing her child to live a torturous few hours or never knowing the sound of her baby's cry?
Despite what you may think, there are logical, medical, and moral reasons that determine why abortions are legal--and what abortions are legal.
Deal with the facts and hand. Dr. Tiller performed abortions, and he believed his work could reconcile with his Christian faith. You obviously disagree, and I respect that. But please don't attribute false atrocities to him or others to make your argument more sensational.
...And how would we know whether or not a church was addressing someone's sin? Would it be in the bulletin?
Now, what's the point? The point is that by refusing to include Dr. Tiller, the hope is that his "spirit will be saved on the day of the Lord" (v5). Not that no one should ever associate with sinners, since that would mean we would "have to leave this world" (v10). But just because we are called to associate with unrepentant sinners should not mean that we ought to include them in our worship assembly — we are to judge them (v12) and finding them in unashamed contradiction to God's word, expel them (v13).
Your rhetorical question doesn't really work: no one ever "fully" comes to Christ or fully embraces Him. It's the sinner who doesn't care that he's a sinner and even flaunts his sin, yet attempts to lay claim to Christ's sacrifice, that Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 5. (This applies to people that murder one person or people that murder dozens every week, like Dr. Tiller.) Such people work through the church like yeast through dough, skewing ideas of right and wrong and leading people behind them into unrepentant and mortal sin. Paul's concern is not for the Dr. Tillers — it's for the rest of the church whose spiritual lives are at stake because of such men. THAT is why he says to expel the immoral believer.
Also, he had the disadvantage of being a public figure. How many people do we stand next to in church every week whose lives we don't know about--whose deep, dark secrets we can't begin to fathom? Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
I don't think that I would go to a Church that failed to consistantly call someone like that to repentance however. I certainly would leave if he was promoted into any form of leadership.
In the same way, I feel like it would hurt my faith to attend church next to a well-to-do doctor with a lucrative practice killing over 60,000 unborn children in exchange for money.
Making him an usher seems to condone his work. I suppose he must have tithed consistently in order to buy the silence of the pastoral staff.
If such a person had no conviction, no crisis of conscience, and no guiding intervention from church leadership or even other attendees, I can't imagine having the strength to continue attending services with that community of believers.
2. I worship standing next to Sinners every Service that I attend. (As do MY pew mates!)
3. How will/would someone, such as Dr. Tiller, ever come to repentance if excluded from fellowship? Confrontation? Maybe. If done in love and with sincere hope of reconcilliation.
4. It is reassuring to know that "many" of Dr. Tiller's patients were caught in "tragic medical situations" but I would not be comfortable with the practice unless that description could be extended to ALL of the babies he (and others like him) have slaughtered.
who are we to judge?
of course, having an addiction of my own probably colors that question far more than it might for someone else. i'm in recovery for it, but nonetheless, it's there.
how would someone feel about going to church with me?
I would say the issue is of Community. Can anyone be a Christian by themselves and intentionally stay outside of community. I would say no. I would find another church if my church would not discipline this person. Over 25 years ago, a man in our church became a Christian, he had to change his job, when he became and Christian. He killed people for organized crime. He made a very good living. He realized that he couldn't continue to kill people and become a Christian, unlike this Dr who killed babies. I prayed for this mans family over the this tragedy. I strongly doubt that this man who performed late term abortions was a Christian. Any church that could have a man like this in their congregation, is a sad reflection on this church, the lack of the presence of Jesus would encourage me to go elsewhere.
Tim
Love them, perceived faults and all.
Could you stand next to him and worship by his side knowing what he did for a living?
Definitely; church is full of sinners (me, included!). All are welcome!
As Christians, we are to exhort and reprimand and help one another get free from sin but we don't have to stone murderers. Churching with the sinners is a great way to influence them whilst ostracising seldom has the desired effect. Of course if one persists in sin one is to be put out of the fellowship eventually.
We need to love people enough to want them to be free from sin.
People can only choose one, this one or the other one, along with its all consequences ...
Once you have answered those questions then ... is there a need to make comment?
Regardless of the sin, sinner, discipline issues, etc -- I don't think I could go to that particular church.... just knowing that (who knows) maybe $100K+ of the church budget was being funded by this man's line of work. Yuck. Not the community for me!
(2) We will never know if Tiller MIGHT have come to Christ, but he shouldn't have held a leadership role until he became convicted of his wrongdoing.
But his gruesome vocation was well known by all in the church -- elders, deacons, pastors.
The Bible is VERY specific in how to deal with sin within the church (adultery, cheating in business, false teaching, or murdering the unborn:
a - Approach the person one on one. If he repents and changes, the issue is closed. b - If he refuses to change, take two or three men to counsel and accountability. c - If he still refuses, cast him out of fellowship with believers.
Sadly, often men with a lot of money are elected as church officers merely because of their wealth and not because of their heart for Jesus Christ.
I am reminded of my conclusion about the election of Gene Robinson as a bishop for New Hampshire in the Episcopalian Church. I am not a member of the Episcopalian Church. I do not pay tithes or offerings to that church, nor have I confessed faith in its doctrines. I also do not live in New Hampshire. Therefore, it is none of my business. When MY church elects a man or woman who is engaged openly in a homosexual couple, I must decide whether to accept that, oppose it, and if I oppose it, whether within the church or by departing from it. The question here is, would Dr. Tiller be welcome at YOUR church. It is none of our business whether the leadership of HIS church should have done as they did.
Note this is not an issue of whether the person is to forever condemned or saved (see v.5); rather, it is a matter of keeping the BODY of Christ as clean as possible. To me, the disgrace of the modern church is that in many congregations there is such a weak sense of moral identity that "all are welcome." Congregations do not need to swing to the other extreme of being exclusivist, haughty, legalist, etc., but certainly a healthy measure of self-respect is often found lacking.
Does the pastor convict church goers of their sin? Of their need to forgive and His forgiveness? Does the pastor preach this?
Does the pastor preach about the sins God names, i.e., homosexuality, drunkenness, men as spiritual leaders of the church and the home?
Tiller should have heard the Word of God every week.
It is, however, a whole different story to have Mr. Tiller serve on the board or committee in a church.
There are 126 psgs in the Bible that have references to Slavery, most are for it.
There are 350 psgs in the Bible that have references to women, most demeaning
If as some say that the Bible condemns same sex marriage, well then it must have been a topic for discussion now for about Two thousand years, longer than the New Testament has been around.
WHY, If God has been around since day one, did it take so long to drop Christianity in our laps, after all, it's only 2 thousand years old, a mere baby as far as religions go.
As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector's booth; and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him.
Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples.
When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
The pastor also observed that, if he killed someone who was attempting to kill his wife, that would be a sin, even if necessary. I'm not sure I would see it that way, if I killed someone who tried to kill my wife, but it has some merit as a point of view. He then observed that this necessity would come by surprise, but Dr. Tiller planned and prepared for work performing late term abortions. This is true, but is is forseeable that some women will die in childbirth unless someone is prepared to perform such abortions. The tragedy is that the political atmosphere has made this a specialty. It should be a procedure that every obstetrician is prepared to do, when truly necessary, in the course of caring for their regular patients, and regretfully done only when necessary. But most won't, which is why Dr. Tiller had a steady stream of patients. It also appears true that the "life or health of the mother" standard has been abused, and that should be addressed without condemning women whose lives ARE truly endangered.
We're going to go ahead and close the comments for now.