Think Christian - Latest Comments in Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Jerod — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:17:44 -0000

Thanks everyone for you thoughtful comments. I'm glad to see this conversation went so well.

We're going to go ahead and close the comments for now.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

SiarlysJenkins — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:54:52 -0000

This sounds like the Bible verse the Spanish Inquisition would have relied on to burn heretics at the stake, not to mention Protestants, who we know were the Real Christians, but the Catholics didn't know that, etc. Saved even as though through fire? Hey, why fantasize, why not really burn them, "for the salvation of their souls" of course.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

SiarlysJenkins — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:34:34 -0000

Two notes: First, late-term abortions are generally not about the "disease" of the child-to-be, but about direct threat to the life of the mother from delivery. Sometimes there is no way to save the baby except to kill the mother, and in that limited situation, a mother may choose to save her own life, losing the baby. Second, in the first two trimesters, parents may choose to remove a partially grown fetus because every cell is indelibly printed with genetic deformities, or the ravages of viral infection, which if not interrupted will grow into a child whose life will be a living hell. That is a choice only the parents can make -- by the time there is a child who can form a choice, much less express it, the decision is already made. (There is no abortion after birth). Some parents choose, on principle and out of genuine love, to take the pregnancy to term and deliver. Some choose, on principle and out of genuine love, to terminate the pregnancy and start over. This was NOT the core of Dr. Tiller's work, but it is a decision I would not take from the parents, substituting my judgment or that of the legislature, no matter which way they decide. Parents who take a pregnancy to term should be prepared to make whatever sacrifices are necessary as a consequence of their decision, and many are.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

SiarlysJenkins — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:24:49 -0000

Ever since we realized that all Christians could not coexist under a single ecclesiastical authority, churches have differed as to what human actions are sinful, and why. Therefore, different churches would, or would not, put an offender out of the church, and would or would not consider, e.g., a doctor performing abortion, as a sin. (Some will put you out for drinking alcohol -- others use alcohol in communion.) Early church councils endeavored to sift through the bubbling syncretisms of early Christianity to define a single church doctrine. Much of this was done to serve the Emperor Constantine, who wanted the church to unify his empire politically. The effort failed, and was probably a house built on sand in the first place, as demonstrated by the Greek-Roman split of 1054, the different choices for what goes into the Bible of the Greek, Roman, Coptic and Protestant faiths, and the successive waves of Protestant revival. So, which church is disgraced by which weak sense of what moral identity? Almost all are indeed going to be welcome somewhere. Any given person may not be welcome in YOUR church. The body of Christ is more diverse than the doctrine you embrace.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

SiarlysJenkins — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:06:09 -0000

For all we know, Dr. Tiller DID "come to Christ." For all we know, Jesus welcomed him with the words "Well done, thou good and faithful servant," possibly for reasons which have nothing to do with his work in the clinic. For all we know Dr. Tiller is the ONLY doctor performing abortions whose work is accepted, because others were less discerning and more venally motivated. Or vice versa. Perhaps the elders, deacons, and pastors of his church were satisfied that he had not done wrong. YOUR church may not agree, but he didn't ask for membership in your church.

I am reminded of my conclusion about the election of Gene Robinson as a bishop for New Hampshire in the Episcopalian Church. I am not a member of the Episcopalian Church. I do not pay tithes or offerings to that church, nor have I confessed faith in its doctrines. I also do not live in New Hampshire. Therefore, it is none of my business. When MY church elects a man or woman who is engaged openly in a homosexual couple, I must decide whether to accept that, oppose it, and if I oppose it, whether within the church or by departing from it. The question here is, would Dr. Tiller be welcome at YOUR church. It is none of our business whether the leadership of HIS church should have done as they did.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

SiarlysJenkins — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:56:31 -0000

Either you are not reading carefully, or you are fully committed to the proposition that a pregnant woman must die in childbirth if that is necessary to save the life of her baby. Roman priests in Ireland did in fact guide doctors to act on precisely that principal in fairly recent times. If you even consider that the woman might have a right to choose her own life over her baby's, if that is really the choice, then you must consider that there could be "moral or ethical reasons for abortion." MOST abortions are not performed for that reason, and MOST abortions are not performed in the third trimester, but that is precisely the question about Dr. Tiller's work.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

coolmom9 — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:33:29 -0000

If you make that grace cheap by continuing in sin, isn't the grace cheapened for all?

Just because someone does a bit of "good" or has good intentions doesn't mean you overlook all the bad. I am wondering how many of the children aborted by Dr. Tiller were misdiagnosed with problems, or what the definition of "health of the mother" really constitues.

I am sure many murderous dictators loved and took care of their families. Would you stand and worship with them?

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

SiarlysJenkins — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:14:02 -0000

I ran this question by a friend who is a retired pastor, who responded "Dr. Tiller would be welcome to worship in my church, but not as a communicant member." I myself often visit that church, but I do not take communion, and would not be welcome to do so, because, more broadly, I do not accept the Bible "as it is taught by" this denomination. (There are other church where I am welcome to take communion, and have done so.) The retired pastor also said that he would attempt to counsel anyone in his church who was in that line of work, try to convict them and bring them to repentance.

The pastor also observed that, if he killed someone who was attempting to kill his wife, that would be a sin, even if necessary. I'm not sure I would see it that way, if I killed someone who tried to kill my wife, but it has some merit as a point of view. He then observed that this necessity would come by surprise, but Dr. Tiller planned and prepared for work performing late term abortions. This is true, but is is forseeable that some women will die in childbirth unless someone is prepared to perform such abortions. The tragedy is that the political atmosphere has made this a specialty. It should be a procedure that every obstetrician is prepared to do, when truly necessary, in the course of caring for their regular patients, and regretfully done only when necessary. But most won't, which is why Dr. Tiller had a steady stream of patients. It also appears true that the "life or health of the mother" standard has been abused, and that should be addressed without condemning women whose lives ARE truly endangered.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Faith_m — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:54:55 -0000

Dear brothers and sisters ,if another believer is overcome by sin ,you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. Galatians 6:1 ,so i feel we are not judging ,but simply following the word of God.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Faith_m — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:40:22 -0000

Amen, Amen and Amen..Their is no better way to answer to this that the above.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Victor Rodrigues — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:33:41 -0000

Matthew 9:9-13

As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector's booth; and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him.

Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples.

When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"

But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Joel Deacon — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:44:43 -0000

There are 9 Psgs of the Bible that have references to Man with Man
There are 126 psgs in the Bible that have references to Slavery, most are for it.
There are 350 psgs in the Bible that have references to women, most demeaning
If as some say that the Bible condemns same sex marriage, well then it must have been a topic for discussion now for about Two thousand years, longer than the New Testament has been around.
WHY, If God has been around since day one, did it take so long to drop Christianity in our laps, after all, it's only 2 thousand years old, a mere baby as far as religions go.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Magnolia — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:31:49 -0000

Interesting, all these comments. (1) True, we are not to judge, but we are to to be DISCERNING - based on what GOD says is right and wrong.
(2) We will never know if Tiller MIGHT have come to Christ, but he shouldn't have held a leadership role until he became convicted of his wrongdoing.
But his gruesome vocation was well known by all in the church -- elders, deacons, pastors.
The Bible is VERY specific in how to deal with sin within the church (adultery, cheating in business, false teaching, or murdering the unborn:
a - Approach the person one on one. If he repents and changes, the issue is closed. b - If he refuses to change, take two or three men to counsel and accountability. c - If he still refuses, cast him out of fellowship with believers.
Sadly, often men with a lot of money are elected as church officers merely because of their wealth and not because of their heart for Jesus Christ.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Bill — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:28:24 -0000

I personally would not have a problem going to church with such a person because all have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. The problem for me is when an unrepenent person is placed in a ministry position such as teaching or ushering. If someone is truly seeking redemption then that is whats important; but the ignorance or acceptace of sin is one of the biggest problems in the church today.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Magnolia — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:12:41 -0000

Worshipping next to an abortionist gives one hope that he will hear the message of hope, life and God's value of the unborn.
Does the pastor convict church goers of their sin? Of their need to forgive and His forgiveness? Does the pastor preach this?
Does the pastor preach about the sins God names, i.e., homosexuality, drunkenness, men as spiritual leaders of the church and the home?
Tiller should have heard the Word of God every week.
It is, however, a whole different story to have Mr. Tiller serve on the board or committee in a church.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Brian J — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:00:59 -0000

Well said. To me the great failings of many (if not most) modern American congregations is a void of moral indentity: "all are welcome." We ought to welcome repentant sinners and encourage conversions, but to include the egregious and unrepentant into our midst compromises the church body as Paul describes. Not to mention the "stumbling block" having such a person as a church member must represent to a portion of the congregation.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Brian J — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:55:24 -0000

(As pointed out by Jeff H) The original posted question is whether one would want to be in church with such a person. I am reminded of the situation of the church of Corinth as revealed in 1 Cor 5. Not to make the mistake of over-applying the text, I felt it worth pointing out that in the case of the egregious and unrepentant sinner, Paul in this case urges the church to put the offender OUT of the church.

Note this is not an issue of whether the person is to forever condemned or saved (see v.5); rather, it is a matter of keeping the BODY of Christ as clean as possible. To me, the disgrace of the modern church is that in many congregations there is such a weak sense of moral identity that "all are welcome." Congregations do not need to swing to the other extreme of being exclusivist, haughty, legalist, etc., but certainly a healthy measure of self-respect is often found lacking.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

John — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:48:06 -0000

A sin is a sin is a sin. There are no lesser sins nor are there worse sins. If you sin against the Father and go against his teachings, then you will have to answer to Him. What the doctor did was not against the laws of the state where he perfomed the abortions. For a long time I didn't pay much attention to what was done in an abortion, but in the last few years have researched the whys and hows of abortion. There are medical reasons to have an abortion in the very earliest terms and doctors use that method in hospital all over the country. However, abortion clinics or planned parenthood clinics as some are called are there for those who believe that the child early term or late term is nothing more than an object. They are there because for whatever reason they believe they can't or won't be able to care for the child. A lot of people only see the death of the child, but if you think in some cases it's not only the death of the child, but of the woman, and family as well. It is a sad day when someone who professes to save lives, takes a life because no one wants it. In God's Grace John

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Faith_m — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 05:41:45 -0000

Amen to that Brian , how different are we...

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Faith_m — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 05:38:56 -0000

We all should strive to live with as little sin as we can ,otherwise they wont be need for the bible , apostols ,pasters ,who were sent by the Almighty to give us guidelines.Thats why their are choices in life if you want to kill babies then go be of the world , all those that are supporting this Dr ,if Jesus were to come today would you stand and support this act?/

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Son#5 — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:27:19 -0000

There is only one Judge, and that is God. Who are we to determine whether a baby lives or dies? There are no moral or ethical reasons for abortion, murder is murder. We all remember "Thou shalt not kill", right? Do us humans think we know more than God and say well, it's okay to kill this baby before it's born, but lock up people for killing a baby after it's born. Dr. Tiller should not have had any leadership roles whatsoever in that church. This whole situation is a perfect picture of how we, both as a nation and a church , have come to value mans opinion over our Creators. May God forgive us.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

againali — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:40:59 -0000

All I'm trying to say is how do we know Dr. Tiller would not have repented eventually?

Also, he had the disadvantage of being a public figure. How many people do we stand next to in church every week whose lives we don't know about--whose deep, dark secrets we can't begin to fathom? Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Sandra25 — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 14:36:55 -0000

The problem is that too many of us are perfectly content to languish in our "sickness," and the rest of us are too timid to hold each other accountable. This is problematic from all perspectives.

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Brian J — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:37:45 -0000

Just a quick question to all of the "oh, my church is FULL of sinners" comments: are your pews full of UNREPENTANT sinners? If so, how then is your church any different from a Sunday morning secular town hall meeting?

Re: Quick Thought: Going to Church With An Abortion Doctor

Ryan — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:05:27 -0000

Raising hypothetical arguments does not bring anything valuable to the table here. Dr. Tiller was not a slave owner. We will never make it legal to abort children "up to 1 month after birth."

Have you ever walked in the shoes of one of the mothers who had to make the undoubtedly horrendous decision between her baby's life and her own? Between allowing her child to live a torturous few hours or never knowing the sound of her baby's cry?

Despite what you may think, there are logical, medical, and moral reasons that determine why abortions are legal--and what abortions are legal.

Deal with the facts and hand. Dr. Tiller performed abortions, and he believed his work could reconcile with his Christian faith. You obviously disagree, and I respect that. But please don't attribute false atrocities to him or others to make your argument more sensational.